Katy Tuncer: Learn, learn, learn

Podcast transcription - 20th November 2017

Peter Cowley:                  So welcome again to another podcast. This time I've got Katy Tuncer with me, who I've known for about four or five years, and helped her with her entrepreneur journey. In return, she's helped me with my life, as a business life coach. And has made a massive difference to me. But let's talk about you. Your background, and why you became an entrepreneur.

Katy Tuncer:                     Well thank you very much for inviting me to talk about me, this time. And my entrepreneurial journey. I've got a really varied background. Ranging from leadership in the Army, Met police, I was a consultant at McKinsey, and set up my own consulting firm. And really what I know about myself is that I love learning new things and starting new things. When I was pregnant with my first son, that was when I had the idea, the original idea, for Ready Steady Mums. And as we know, lots of business start with one idea and they evolve.

                                             We first were thinking about making a series of DVD's for mums. And then evolving on, we realized that actually something that would be really cool would be to be able to have like a virtual personal trainer for mothers. So you'd go online, you'd have something like a consultation with a real personal trainer. And you'd be asked some questions about your health, about your birth, your preferences. And then you'd have a program that was tailored for you.

                                             And this idea, and there definitely isn't anything like that, we thought that it would be possible to build something. There comes the first problem. And so I began to design Ready Steady Mums idea when I was pregnant with my first son.

Peter Cowley:                  And to do that, you had this friend, this programmer that you knew, and you produced a platform, and then started to spread it out into groups, was it?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah. So the first idea was to build something that would stand alone and mothers could sign up online and they could get a virtual personal trainer. And along with my friend, who I knew from university who's a programmer, we built something that kind of did that. And when I actually had my first son, I had to, I'm in the market then myself, and I realized there's this huge part of it as well.

                                             Which is about the community support, and about mobilizing yourself with your friends, and dealing with some of the emotional barriers and the practical barriers. As well as just knowing what to do and being confident that you were doing the right exercise, it was also the infrastructure behind it. It seems so obvious to me now, but at the time, that was a revelation.

                                             So I started running a local group to do the exercises in my local community, and then someone in that group wanted to start another group so I helped her to do that. And then somebody else then moved out of the area and set up another group quite some way away. And we realized then, there's a model there which is replicable, where volunteer moms-

Peter Cowley:                  And you gave them enough information to set up the group and run it?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. I didn't get it right first time. I suppose that's the learning for a lot of entrepreneurs. It was far too complicated, what we started with. And to start with, things like we didn't even realize how important it is just to make it the same time, the same place, every week, completely predictable. And not allow it to be whenever anyone's available. Because mums didn't want that. Things like the amount of clicks that you need to do to get through.

                                             I know this is so obvious now, but to get through to actually see what the right video is that demonstrates the exercise you should do. It needs to just be there and it needs to be really easy. So it evolved over time. But what we found really works, and I suppose the outcome at the end of all of this, is that mums like to get together in communities and support each other and be physically active.

Peter Cowley:                  So you built up how many groups before you decided that you might be able to raise, you would like to raise some money to scale it?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. I think we had about 20 odd groups when we thought it'd be a good idea to try and scale the business and make it the big exit we might have all hoped for. At that time we hadn't separated the virtual personal trainer and the local community groups, it was still all one. And I suppose, in retrospect, I can see that the community group side is really successful, we just didn't crack the user experience for the virtual personal trainer. So lots of people were going to the groups, but they weren't actually buying the virtual personal trainer.

Peter Cowley:                  Buying as in buying the DVD's? Or even just interacting with the website?

Katy Tuncer:                     Well the DVD's is another little aside as well.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes, yeah.

Katy Tuncer:                     So actually the core product was the virtual personal trainer. And we tried many different ways of getting people to pay for it. There was a subscription model. There was a pay as you go model. We tried to work, we had a deal with Mothercare at one point where they were allowing us to run it through their stores. What we found was we just couldn't get people to pay, even though they said they really wanted it, they really loved it, it was something that they really valued, and a great part of their experience of motherhood, they didn't want to pay for it.

Peter Cowley:                  Right. So you decided then the best way to do that was to employ somebody to help with that process and raise some cash. Is that right?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. Well we thought if we could raise some more money, so we could do two things. One we could do a proper marketing campaign, rather than it all just be word of mouth, and friends that I know, and community group stuff. And the second is that we could improve the user experience for the virtual personal trainer. The content we had on there was amazing. I had worked with a gynaecologist and I had worked with, also a film producer, and also my original partner, the programmer. And what we had was so clever, and technically it was really, really good. But the user experience just wasn't landing and that was the limiting thing. So we thought we'd raise some money and then we would be able to grow and scale and see if we could really make it work.

Peter Cowley:                  And before you, we go on to actually raising the money, you also at the same time were juggling a few other things, weren't you?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. I had my second child quite soon after that. So I had two little babies, two baby boys. And I also had a job. So I was still working.

Peter Cowley:                  Three or four days a week in London by the sound of it.

Katy Tuncer:                     Well I was actually working full time, but I was working compressed hours.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     I guess there's a lot of entrepreneurs that do it that way. You know, you need to somehow sustain the financial existence and also have a bit of time. So I worked compressed hours. It was crazy time, really.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah.

Katy Tuncer:                     But I know that about myself, I just like to work hard. Push it a bit harder, see if I can make something happen.

Peter Cowley:                  And you obviously put a plan together and you chose to go down the Crowdfunding route, didn't you?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, I did. When we started looking to raise money I didn't even know what Crowdfunding was. We had some really good conversation with Angel Investors. One in particular that we thought was going to happen, and then I think it was maybe him that said actually Crowdfunding could be right for you. The thing that really made it seem to fit was our big community value creation. The fact that we were doing something great for mothers, that we were, people were telling us we were making a huge difference for their emotional wellbeing, as well as their physical wellbeing. And so we thought, well lets leverage that and see if we can do a Crowdfund, and then have it fell like it's owned by the community.

Peter Cowley:                  And this is back in 2013, so there weren't that many Crowdfunding platforms around.

Katy Tuncer:                     No, I think we were pioneering.

Peter Cowley:                  You were, yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, we really were.

Peter Cowley:                  And you chose one of them, and how was that process? You know, in terms of the amount of time you spent on it and the things that went wrong and went right?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, it took a lot longer than I thought. Again, this is what I hear all the time from other entrepreneurs, that raising money takes way longer than you expect. Whatever way you do it. And so the first thing we had to do was choose which platform we would use. And we looked at all the platform available at the time. It's interesting, they're all really on salesy, salesy, salesy. They all really wanted us, and made quite a lot of outlandish promises about how much they would reach a huge audience and the great service that they would give us. And we took a lot of that with a pinch of salt.

                                             But we looked at, I think it came down for us between Seedrs and Crowdcube. We also looked at one called Crowed Banquet. I don't think it exists anymore, but they seemed good but very much lower reach. So in the end we chose Seedrs. Seedrs had the nominee structure, where they do all the legal work and then they basically, they are the shareholder. And then they give out the shares to, we had 114 Crowdfunding investors. Which is an attractive part of it for us. I really hate admin.

Peter Cowley:                  And then did you produce a video at the time?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah. You had a video-

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  And then you had, there was a forum which you needed to interact with, wasn't there?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. So you did, the pitch video was the critical, the really critical thing. That's what everybody said was good. And we spent a lot of effort on that. I pulled together quite an impressive Advisory Board. And all of those individuals were willing to be on the video in the end.

Peter Cowley:                  Well done.

Katy Tuncer:                     So we had a, it was great, I mean the video basically laid out what our success had been to date. The strength of the team. What we thought the opportunity was. And exactly how we were going to do it. It was a classic business plan, but in a two minute video. And we also did a really, really in depth financial analysis. And even at the time we kind of knew that you're doing it to show that you know how to do it. Not because necessarily the valuation was totally watertight of course. But those were the two things that we had in our inventory to go and impress all these potential investors. And yeah, so we went out, we put that on the platform that went live. And then the next day it was going out and really just talking to everyone. We tried, I was like heckling people that-

Peter Cowley:                  In the street?

Katy Tuncer:                     On the street. I mean literally I was. At one point I walked past someone who I knew was an investor, this is when I was on the street, and I was like, “Oh, do you want to hear about this?” And then at the end of it I said, “So how was that pitch?” He said, “Yeah it was good, I'll give you some money.” I mean it was about 100 quid or something, but still.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katy Tuncer:                     That was the way it worked. And we had a lot of 10 pounds investors.

Peter Cowley:                  Right.

Katy Tuncer:                     And then the important thing there, is that they're then telling their friends and talking about it. I'd say we probably had about 10 investors putting in more than a few thousand.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     One went 15 hundred plus. And those people, almost all wanted a conversation with me to talk about the business. To talk about how we'd analyse the valuation. What we were really going to do, and give me a bit of a grilling. Fine. Totally reasonable when they did put the money in.

Peter Cowley:                  And the fact the amount you're raising was, by modern standards, wasn't very much. How much was it?

Katy Tuncer:                     No, we raised 57 thousand. In fact, we only aimed to raise 50, but you go into overfunded and we thought, “Why not.” Actually once we made that amount of effort we got to 57 thousand.

Peter Cowley:                  And how long was the process between first approaching, or choosing a Crowdfunding site, and the cash coming into the bank account?

Katy Tuncer:                     It should have been sooner. So we chose the Crowdfunding site. We did the fundraise. The fundraise itself took around three months in total, well from first going on the platform, to getting it live, to doing the pitch, and then to getting the money. Took three months, maybe slightly less. Then it took them about, I think it was about six weeks more till we got the money.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     Which was a bit of a nightmare for us, actually.

Peter Cowley:                  Because you were starting to spend it?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. Exactly.

Peter Cowley:                  At least in your head if not by starting to employ people.

Katy Tuncer:                     Exactly. And then there was a complication where I was putting in directors loans to bridge that gap.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     And then when we got the money I wanted to pay them back and they said, “You can't. Because look in the deal it says that we can't"-

Peter Cowley:                  Pay back directors loans. Right.

Katy Tuncer:                     "Use this money to pay back directors loans." And I was like, “But I've only.” You know. And that was really stressful.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes. Yeah, okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     But you know, that is the life of an entrepreneur isn't it? You have these stressful times when you pick something up like that.

Peter Cowley:                  And this was what? When is this? Early 2013 we're talking about now? Or mid 2013?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes, it was by early summer 2013.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     That we really were able to do the things that we had raised the money to do.

Peter Cowley:                  And by that point, you'd chosen who to employ I guess, had you?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. Yes. We'd built a team.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay. And then, so you switched them on and they started working?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay. Now this journey ends in failure, and obviously we want to understand what you think about what happened.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  So let’s just talk through that. So the team comes onboard.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  They start to do things.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  Positive things, no doubt.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  Talk about those.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. So there were a lot of things that we wanted to do. Too many I should think, actually. And we began work on some of the marketing, and some of the direct experience development in earnest, in the very beginning. What I found quite soon, was that the things that I was personally doing were still happening, and were still, you know, we were making progress quicker because I was getting some support with doing those things. But I had been completely unrealistic about how my vision could be executed by other people. And we ended up with quite a big conflict between two of the people that had joined.

Peter Cowley:                  And you?

Katy Tuncer:                     No.

Peter Cowley:                  Or each other? With each other?

Katy Tuncer:                     With each other.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah.

Katy Tuncer:                     And I got a lot of emotional energy invested in trying to deal with that. That there was a lot of accusations that the other one was not doing it right and not properly, it was pretty stressful actually.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     So I felt like a lot of our, a lot of what we'd been able to buy in terms of other peoples time, was not getting effectively put to solving the priority issues for drive and growth. So a few of the breakthroughs we had, like I managed to form some new partnerships, which turned out to be really important. And I was still filming new content. I was still managing to write some new, creative content, both for consumers and for our partners. And that I was doing that first, and that was good. And we were growing in the community and we were getting more groups signing up. We could not agree on what the mechanics should be for membership, for implementing a new membership for the personal trainer.

Peter Cowley:                  We being the three people, the two people you're talking about, plus you?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah. And there was one other person as well. So there were kind of three other senior people involved.

Peter Cowley:                  Right.

Katy Tuncer:                     And two of them had a massive conflict.

Peter Cowley:                  Right.

Katy Tuncer:                     And it was, and I just felt like I was constantly getting dragged in to try to solve another argument about how something should be done. I suppose at the time I was sort of, “I don't mind what we do, can't we just get on with something?” And that was a bit naïve of me really.

Peter Cowley:                  And of course, what you've done is build up a lot of, a number of advisors, but you didn't actually strengthen the Board did you? So the Board at this point is primarily you and your husband whose also an entrepreneur.

Katy Tuncer:                     No. No. The Board was exceptionally good, actually.

Peter Cowley:                  Right.

Katy Tuncer:                     Thank goodness for the Board.

Peter Cowley:                  The Board of Directors?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah.

Katy Tuncer:                     But they were all advisors, voluntary advisors. And we never actually got to the point of making them Directors of the company. I don't think it would have made any difference if we had, or not.

Peter Cowley:                  You think not?

Katy Tuncer:                     No.

Peter Cowley:                  You don't think one of them would have said, “Look, this conflicts happening, somebody's got to go.”

Katy Tuncer:                     I think-

Peter Cowley:                  No, clearly not. Otherwise,-

Katy Tuncer:                     No, somebody did. And then it took about six months to deal with it. Yeah. I mean there was one person on the Board who, if he hadn't been there and he hadn't come and given me a bit of a talking to. And then really supported me massively with those really, really difficult conversations, honestly I can't imagine what would have happened.

Peter Cowley:                  Right.

Katy Tuncer:                     He was amazing. He was a Finance Director in quite a big company. And was on it, completely on it, thank goodness.

Peter Cowley:                  So during all this conflict, of course the business isn't growing in the way you'd want it to do?

Katy Tuncer:                     No.

Peter Cowley:                  So talk about that process.

Katy Tuncer:                     Well when you and I first met of course, that was when I was quite desperate really, and trying to work out what we should be focusing on to give ourselves a chance of succeeding.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     And what we did actually, together, is we laid out didn't we, some decision lines-

Peter Cowley:                  Kept your eyes on it, yeah. Timeline success.

Katy Tuncer:                     And I was saying, “Well this is what I think we could achieve. And how much longer am I going to keep trying?" And what we said was, “Well okay, let’s put a line in the sand that says there's these three KPI's, and if we haven't achieved those, then we're going to put to the Board of Advisors that we were going to shut the business down.” Which is pretty, a hardcore conversation.

Peter Cowley:                  We're only talking about, not many months after investment.

Katy Tuncer:                     It went so quickly. It just. Yeah. How quickly the money could get spent and how quickly a conflict like that could just eat up the whole thing. I mean you know, first of all what I should say is that I don't know, and I'll probably never know, to what extent that team issue was the problem. Versus actually we never got the product market fit right. So whilst we had something people wanted, would people really be willing to pay for that? I don't know.

Peter Cowley:                  Have you made the decision that product market fit wasn't going to work. You then went through a process of shutting the business down over a period of time, which I believe you did in an extremely measured way, for the benefit of everybody involved.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. It's kind of an irony isn't it, that my big success is the elegant failure. I believe that's how it got described in a book actually. It's a case study of how to fail elegantly. Once I, I mean, I can even say now, “We failed.” At the time, even just saying we failed is so painful that I really just. Yeah, that was pretty hard. But once I had accepted that, and it helped hugely to have laid out decision lines. To have reached that point. To have not, despite every effort I could possibly sum up from my own resources and those around me, we hadn't done it. Accepting that we'd failed. And then I really just wanted to run away and hide. And partly on your advice actually Peter. You know I got on the phone, and I phoned up the investors of the Crowdfund.

Peter Cowley:                  The larger ones?

Katy Tuncer:                     All the larger ones.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, all the larger ones. And I had a conversation, which I planned very carefully in advance. Which was along the lines of, “I'm calling to let you know that Ready Steady Mums is going to close down. That we failed. That we've lost your money. That I am responsible for that, and I am sorry. And I want to answer any questions that you have.” Something like that.

                                             And the first call I did was obviously completely terrifying and the person I phoned said, “Wow, thanks for calling me. That's really amazing to hear from you to tell me that. I would never expect to hear from a founder in your position. And if you do another venture, then give me a call and I'll back you again.”  I was like, “Wow. Great.” Okay, so slightly buoyed up by that, but still fearful.

                                             Then I did the next call and had my script. I would say, 80% of the people I rang were having that kind of reaction. Of saying, "Yeah, you gave it your all. When you, we weren't going with our eyes shut, we knew that we were investing in a start-up which is a risky thing. And thanks for telling us." And again, lots of people were saying, "Give me a call when you're doing your next venture." Which was quite amazing. So it's sort of mixed feelings.

Peter Cowley:                  So there's a great moral from that of course, is to keep in touch with your investors. Not just of course on the point of failure, or before that, but the whole way through.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, I think it's important. Because obviously it feels at the time like it's the be all and end all, I've failed at my business. But I, as a human being, still exist and they still exist. And now, looking back a few years down the line, I have those relationships with those people and I am, you know. It's just really important. I kept my integrity and I-

Peter Cowley:                  And you managed to shut it down solvently? So no money was owed to anybody?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah. Well just, you know.

Peter Cowley:                  By funding the final-

Katy Tuncer:                     A few little personal costs.

Peter Cowley:                  But more importantly the dream that you'd set out with, some years beforehand, has continued hasn't it?

Katy Tuncer:                     So there is the really fantastic outcome. And I don't want to detract away from the honesty that it didn't work as a financially viable venture. But, absolutely brilliantly, the Institute of Health Visiting, which is the charity we had begun working with on the community program, said, "We don't want this community program to end." And also many of the volunteers running the group said the same thing, "We don't want this to end."  And the Institute offered to take it over and run it. And I, along with two of the other key people involved in the business, agreed to volunteer for the Institute, and to help them to run the community program.

                                             So they've since then, they've taken it on. We've actually had some breakthroughs beyond the business side. Because now health visitors can start the groups with no fear that they're giving money to a commercial venture. It's just completely voluntarily. So they've really taken it on, and they're working with mums and communities, empowering them, giving them the confidence to run walking groups as volunteers. And the Institute has gone from strength to strength with Ready Steady Mums. And me, and Kim, and Kate, have continued to support them any way we can.

Peter Cowley:                  So how many groups do you think there are? What-

Katy Tuncer:                     Well the last time I spoke to the Chief Executive, I think she said it was 67 groups.

Peter Cowley:                  Oh goodness, well that's many more than you ever got.

Katy Tuncer:                     This year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah.

Katy Tuncer:                     Absolutely. I mean I think the maximum that we got to when it was me on my own, was around 40 something. And that was with me really driving it. You know how it is. Like literally calling them up the whole time. I had personal relationships with most of them, really that amount of effort. And now it's just happening because it's a community program with legs of its own.

Peter Cowley:                  So the shareholders, oh this isn't the usual way of expressing it. It could be looked at as having donated to a charity, which was Ready Steady Mums, as a limited company, which has led to great social outcomes.

Katy Tuncer:                     Well many of them do see it like that. And I was very, very careful not to put that as the leading point. I've always been very careful to say, “I know that's not why you're vested.” And to wait until everything was completed. And to then give them some good news in that context.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     And actually it's one of the things I'm planning to do, is to write to them again, because well I'm talking at the Institute of Health Visiting's annual conference this year. And it has led to some really great things. And there's mums around the country now that are accessing social exercise groups and getting all the mental health benefits, as well as physical health, being role models to their kids. This stuffs all happening.

Peter Cowley:                  And it's retaining the same brand as well.

Katy Tuncer:                     It's still called Ready Steady Mums.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah. For sure. Okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, yeah. They've taken it over and it's. So that's a really, I'm really proud of that.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah, there aren't many start-ups who have gone through a failure where the actual outcome in the longer term, may well be more than they could have ever achieved by themselves.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Cowley:                  Which is, you must be really proud of.

Katy Tuncer:                     I'm really proud of that. Yeah.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah. Excellent. So Katy, how has the Ready Steady Mums journey helped you?

Katy Tuncer:                     One of the things Ready Steady Mums has really helped me to do is to think about failure in a much more healthy way. And I did a talk recently, which landed with the audience so well. Right, it's these little tennis balls, as demonstrations of failure. And I had, each one had a little sad face on it. And I said, “Well what we normally do with failure, and what I realized I'd been doing, is we try to hide it.” So hiding my tennis ball. "Or we try to blame someone else." And throw it at someone else. "Or we try to dress it up, disguise it like something else and pretend that we actually meant to achieve something else. And one of the things I got from Ready Steady Mums is it's okay to say “I tried to do this, I failed.” Part of failing means I've added to my whole infantry of life experience and makes me the person I am today."

Peter Cowley:                  What you were particularly good at was speaking at conferences and building partnerships, wasn't it? Can you talk through that a bit?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. Well once we'd raised the money, one of the things I realized is that it did free me up a little bit to focus on my own strengths. And as an entrepreneur you do have to do everything, don't you? You know, you find, everything's got to be done and there's only you. But one of the things, after we raised money, was that I could be more conscious of, for example I know that when I go to speak at a conference or an event, than I'm really influential. I've managed to inspire people and create a vision, and make things happen. And then people go off and they want to start groups, or they want to do a partnership with us, or things like that. And that's what I really learned to focus on the things where I'm good at, and have a real impact. And to be able to hire other people who could do some of the things that were, either not my passions or just that I'm not very good at.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah, like software coding or-

Katy Tuncer:                     Yeah, exactly. Software. Or just the kind of diligent, detailed, checking the accounts type work. Which would take me 10 times longer cause it's not my favourite thing. Than me going off and, or say doing another radio interview. Or going and filming another bit of awesome exercise content that would really excite our audience of mums.

Peter Cowley:                  Were you full time at this point?

Katy Tuncer:                     No. No.

Peter Cowley:                  Too small children.

Katy Tuncer:                     Well I was full time.

Peter Cowley:                  In life.

Katy Tuncer:                     I was full time in life.

Peter Cowley:                  Then you were still-

Katy Tuncer:                     No, at this point I still had a job. I still had my babies. And I was trying to do this on the side.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     And really, I'm a very productive person. I think when you're really passionate about something you can get a huge amount done. And the great thing of course, about Ready Steady Mums is that it was a lot of physical exercise. So whilst it's pretty hardcore to go and be in a studio for a day doing exercise solidly, demonstrating exercises solidly, it's actually kind of good for you and it's a nice balance between desk work and ... So as long as I had a lot of change it was alright.

Peter Cowley:                  So the takeaway from this is that, do what you're good at.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes.

Peter Cowley:                  And delegate what you're not.

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. I know that sounds very simplistic, but yes. I mean, as much as you can, to do that. And then to give yourself a chance to actually have balance and enjoy it.

Peter Cowley:                  So let’s just talk about what next. I mean in the meantime I happen to know that you've had a couple more boys. So you've not got five, four boys.

Katy Tuncer:                     Four. Yes, I finished having children now. Not including start-ups.

Peter Cowley:                  Yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     So I'm, I love the world of start-ups. And I have been a coach for a long time, well of course that's when we first met. I'd been coaching you.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah, you offered that to me, yes.

Katy Tuncer:                     And I've become more and more focused on coaching in the start-up world. So I've got quite a lot of start-up CEO's that I work with now, one to one, and with their teams. And I, so at the moment that's the main channel where I bring all the learning from my own experience's in entrepreneurship with Ready Steady Mums, and with the other ventures that I've done. And I think the founders that I work with say that I can put myself in their position, authentically, as a result of that. And I think I'm able to bring value and understanding in a way that I couldn't if I hadn't done it myself. I also still have definitely, a plan to start another venture in the not to distant future.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay. Well that's clearly, that's on hold. But your husband also is part of a start-up now?

Katy Tuncer:                     Yes. He is yeah. We've been sort of living the dream. He's in a start-up as one of those fast growth-

Peter Cowley:                  Fairly deep tech?

Katy Tuncer:                     It's deep tech, yeah.

Peter Cowley:                  Okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     In the Cambridge area. Yeah. We're in this world.

Peter Cowley:                  Yeah, maybe subject to another podcast. Yeah. Okay.

Katy Tuncer:                     Fully immersed in this world.

Peter Cowley:                  Well it's been really great talking to you Katy. Although we haven't talked about it much, you made a massive difference in my business life, and the roles I've had.

Katy Tuncer:                     Thank you.

Peter Cowley:                  And long may that continue. Thank you very much Katy. Thank you.

Katy Tuncer:                     Thanks Peter.